Strong Sense of Place A Travel Podcast on Books That Bring Places to Life: S9E2

David Humphreys and Melissa Joulwan are the hosts of Strong Sense of Place, a podcast and web site dedicated to literary travel and books with vivid settings. In each episode of their show, they explore one destination and talk about what makes that place different from everywhere else on earth. Then they recommend books set in that destination and talk to a special guest.

Original publication date: March 6, 2020

Strong Sense of Place: https://pod.link/1494452606

 🌍 Tools & resources for living, traveling, and working abroad: https://geopatsabroad.substack.com/p/living-abroad-resources

🛍️ Geopats Abroad Stationary Store: https://geopatsabroad-shop.fourthwall.com/en-eur?utm_source=buzzsprout&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=geopats_shop&utm_content=episode_description

🛠️ Podcast & creator tools I use: https://podcaststeph.substack.com/p/podcast-tools-i-use

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/geopatsabroad/

🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnfWdoMjmqpcbULZw-hVgew

Transcript

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SPEAKER_07 0:28

Bell and I say that sometimes this project feels like a cumulation of everything we've ever done. And I think that's true, right? There's skills that we built to different places all along the way, and all of them have come to use now. And that's great.

SPEAKER_08 0:43

If I remember every past, I can solve this business we need. I can make it past.

SPEAKER_06 0:52

Welcome to the Dia Pets Podcast, where we talk to people that have a few different cultures in them, around them, and running through their hearts and minds. We talk to them about books, coffee, podcasting, creating, and language, and you know what? So much more. We even have a new Berlin specific show because I have moved to Berlin, Germany. This particular episode is a global podcasting show where we're talking to Melissa and David from the Sense of Place podcast. Now, you heard from them a few weeks ago in episode 114, where I took a tiny snippet of a book conversation that came out of the conversation that you're about to listen to today. And this is actually the fuller conversation that we had about their podcasting setup. Now, a strong sense of place podcast, if you haven't heard it yet, will blow you away. It will blow you away with the ease, the insight, and the sheer amount of information that they have that really helps us understand that location. For example, the most recent episode, it's about Morocco, some place that is definitely at the top of my list and has been for quite some time. So it was a thrill to listen to the books describing people that lived in Morocco, people that traveled in Morocco, and the books they pick have a deep understanding of a place. Anyway, they're gonna tell you more about the podcast, so I don't want to do too much of that, but I do want to let you know that if you have a book wish list that you add stuff to, you're probably going to want to get it out when you start listening to a strong sense of place. So we're talking about global podcasting, their podcasting setup, their research process, their equipment, which includes some fun bits that I think you'll enjoy, and so much more. So yeah, let's get started. Let's hear from Mel and Dave themselves. I can make it back. Thank you so much, Melissa and Dave, for coming on the Geopaths Podcast global podcasting show. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_07 2:42

Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks.

SPEAKER_06 2:43

And can you tell everybody where you are currently located? What city and country?

SPEAKER_07 2:48

We are currently in Prague in the Czech Republic.

SPEAKER_06 2:51

Which makes this very easy to schedule. So hurrah to that.

SPEAKER_07 2:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

No, we could pretend that we're actually doing this on the train traveling from Berlin to Prague.

SPEAKER_06 3:00

We should have done that. That would be very cool. Can you tell the listeners just a brief little snippet of your podcast and what it's about?

SPEAKER_05 3:10

So our podcast is new. We just launched in January. It's called Strong Sense of Place. And we also have a companion website, and both are dedicated to literary travel and books with very vivid settings. Our goal is to help armchair travelers and actual travelers learn a bit about the world, feel empathetic towards characters, and get excited about traveling, whether they're physically leaving their house or snuggling up with a good book.

SPEAKER_06 3:38

What came first, the blog or the podcast?

SPEAKER_05 3:40

So the initial idea was to have a website that covered the entire world. Like this is my dream that I came up with, I don't know, three or four years ago, because we love to travel and I like to read specifically novels before I travel to a new place. So I realized that doing that research on my own, that there aren't a lot of people recommending books set in different places. There are lots and lots of huge lists generated by algorithms, but there weren't people really with that specific point of view making recommendations. And I thought we could do that. So my initial idea was to have this huge website with the entire world represented. And then when we started actually digging into the work, we realized to produce that website in its entirety would take way more time than we could really invest at this point. And we'd always thought we would do a podcast kind of as a marketing tool later. And then one morning we were talking about it halfway, still in our pajamas, where you have your really intense discussions and all the good ideas come from. And we decided to flip those things because we realized if we did the podcast and visited all of these destinations through the podcast, then we could be building the website as we did that and we could connect with people sooner. So the podcast came first, even though the website idea was first.

SPEAKER_06 4:59

And that makes sense because the the connections and the momentum from that, I can see that fueling the writing of the blog posts. Yeah. So let's do a quick tech setup of how you, and this fits into what I'm staring at right now in the video. Feel free not to get too bogged down with the tech, but what mics do you use? How do you record that kind of what software do you use? Just a quick rundown.

SPEAKER_07 5:23

The tech sort of chain is pretty, I think, basic. It's we uh record sure 58s and then through a cloud lifter, and that goes into a little recorder, the task cam 40x. And then I edit everything in audition and post it to uh Podbean and then out to the world. The piece that you mentioned is, of course, the pride of our recording studio, the blanket fort.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

Um so we the portable blanket fort. So the TM.

SPEAKER_07 5:55

The problem we were solving is we live in an apartment that has uh high ceilings, which I realize is a super first world problem. But we were talking, and when we were recording, we just get this enormous echo. And we were trying to figure out what we were gonna do about that, and we thought about going to studios, and we thought about for we actually had a recording once there's a sauna in our apartment.

SPEAKER_05 6:18

Uh down in the basement, not in our in our apartment, in the basement.

SPEAKER_07 6:22

In the basement of the apartment, and so we for like we tried once recording in there because the walls are wooden, and that kind of had a nice sound, but also echoey, and like, oh we were interrupted by our neighbors once.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

There were no lights down there, so we recorded in the dark with this little LED like lantern. Yeah, it was like camping, there's no electricity, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:44

So that was kind of like maybe it's been a journey to the podcast.

unknown 6:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:50

So we were commiserating with a friend of ours about this whole situation, and they were like, Well, why don't you throw a blanket over your head and record that way? And we were like, Oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And uh we were thinking about that. And what we did is we went to IKEA and got a couple of wardrobe racks, and uh went to Amazon and got some packing blankets, and we use the blankets that we have, and we get a pretty decent sound out of that.

SPEAKER_06 7:15

You get a great sound. Your podcast sounds very professional.

SPEAKER_07 7:18

Thanks.

SPEAKER_06 7:19

Thanks, IKEA. I've seen all kinds of setups. I've seen people who also just have like big cardboard boxes and they put that insulation, the conditioning, whatever treatment thing inside of it, and they do that. But it's hard to do with two people with that.

SPEAKER_05 7:33

You're looking at us sitting at one of our desks right now, side by side, but when we're recording the podcast, we actually sit facing each other and it's kind of rectangular shaped. So it's really modular. We can move it around when one of us has to record and the other one doesn't, it takes a different shape. It's actually pretty cool. And I think the racks at IKEA cost maybe $7 each.

SPEAKER_07 7:53

Yeah, the whole studio was like $50, I think.

SPEAKER_05 7:58

And much easier than the PVC pipe thing. We tried to we downloaded like the blueprints for the PVC pipe, and we went to the hardware store here. And in the US, it's probably a lot easier, but it was really challenging at the hardware store here where there was not a lot of English happening and we couldn't find the appropriate pieces, and we were kind of really discouraged. And we went to the little cafe in the hardware store because, of course, there's a really nice cafe inside the hardware store where this really cute Czech man was eating schnitzel and drinking beer. Yeah. Yeah. It's so awesome. And then I thought, IKEA is right around the corner. Surely that and I was kind of thinking like a wardrobe we would actually sit inside. But this is much easier. I was hoping for a Narnia thing, but this is good too.

SPEAKER_06 8:46

You do what you can. You can always upgrade to that later if you want to, but but I don't see the point. It sounds like a good setup and you can move it around. You can take it with you. Have you traveled with it yet?

SPEAKER_07 8:55

No.

SPEAKER_06 8:55

We have not.

SPEAKER_07 8:56

No, in part out of embarrassment, I think.

SPEAKER_06 8:58

Taking apart the rack and putting it back together doesn't sound like it would be uh time effective. If you're traveling and recording at the same time, you could probably just throw something over and remember what you're gonna say because it's dark in there. Well, the main reason I contacted you guys, one, is that I fell in love with your podcast. And two, I was floored by the amount of information and the organization and the research that went into it. So I'd like to pick your brain on your research workflow. Like, how do you from start to finish, ready to go? How do you make your podcast? How do you research for your podcast?

SPEAKER_05 9:34

So I'm gonna start because I want to talk about how we choose the destinations that we talk about in each episode. When I was originally thinking about this project and it was going to be a website, but this applies to doing the podcast too. The first thing I thought was, well, I will research where Americans, we assumed the our primary audience would be American and Canadian. So I researched where Americans generally travel outside and inside the United States because I thought we should start with the most popular destinations. The issue with that is that Americans tend to go to Mexico, Canada, and London, which is not very diverse. So we decided early on to scrap the idea of doing what was most popular and to instead every season of our podcast, which is 12 episodes, we represent every geographical area of the globe. So we want to make sure we hit um, you know, Asia, Europe, Africa, the Caribbean. So that we are covering everything and our show is as diverse as possible. And it's also really fun for us because we are learning about places that had not been on our travel list before. So from that perspective, it's been really eye-opening and really interesting.

SPEAKER_07 10:53

We also do three themes every season, or at least plan two. So uh theme is not country specific, but uh location specific. So maybe all of all of these books have something to do with a theater or have a strong sense of a schoolroom or a library or circus.

SPEAKER_05 11:12

Circus is coming up this season. We're really excited about that one.

SPEAKER_07 11:15

And we just finished the C, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06 11:19

Because there's so many books in each episode. How do you narrow it down to even just that plentiful amount?

SPEAKER_07 11:25

It's a lot of work, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

I mean, if you consider reading the beginning of lots of books work. I mean, it's pretty fun.

SPEAKER_09 11:33

The truth is out.

SPEAKER_07 11:36

We search online a lot for books that are good candidates. We get a hold of those books, we read the beginning. If we like it, we go all the way through. If we love it, it gets on the site. It's very time-intensive.

SPEAKER_05 11:49

My personal preference when I'm reading is historical fiction, and I love first-person narratives and I like magical realism. But one of the things that's fascinating about this project is that we're not just reading for ourselves anymore. So I tend to naturally gravitate toward fiction. Dave kind of heads toward nonfiction, but we have not made that a distinct dividing line in the books we recommend. Sometimes we cross over into each other's areas. Um, but generally when I'm looking for fiction, I try to find a historical novel. I'm looking for something in translation or written by someone from that country as much as possible. We have a motto that's kind of no homework books. So if there's a book that is not, you know, it's representative of the culture, but it's not fun to read or engaging in some way and it feels like a slog, then that's probably not going to make it onto our show. So it's a balancing act because we're trying to be really respectful. At the same time, we want these, we want to be entertaining when we're talking about the books. And we want people to think they sound great and want to read them, and homework books are not necessarily the way to go there.

SPEAKER_06 12:58

And feel free not to answer this, but do you read every book that you talk about on the podcast?

SPEAKER_05 13:02

Oh, I'm so glad you asked us that. We do. Yeah. So we made a very firm rule that we were not going to write about or talk about a book that we had not read in its entirety because this whole project started out of the frustration. I would Google, you know, great books for Prague, and it would be 25 books with the flap copy rewritten. And there was no sense that an actual human had decided this was a great book about Prague. So we have a little piece of text on every book page on our site that says this book would not be here if we didn't love it. So they're personal recommendations.

SPEAKER_07 13:41

Some of the books that you find on a list like Great Books About Prague don't even bring up Prague very well. Uh they might as well be set anywhere else, you know. And sometimes we run into that too. Somebody will suggest a book that's great. Beartown. Beartown is set in Sweden, um but it doesn't have to be. It's a great book, but it doesn't have a strong sense of Sweden.

SPEAKER_06 14:04

Do you tend to focus on the location aspect of the book, even if it might not be a central part of the book?

SPEAKER_05 14:13

We are looking for books as much as possible where the location is kind of a character. But having said that, we have a Chicago episode coming up, and I'm recommending a book that I absolutely loved so much, and it does have a sense of Chicago. I think it could work in a couple of other American cities, but it was so good I decided to include it. We're trying to be as true to the premise as possible, but also just recommend some really great books. It's a balancing act, I think. We've definitely heard from some people who have said the Japan episode, someone said they really, really enjoyed it, but you didn't mention all of these famous Japanese authors. And if we were comprehensive, I mean, literally, you could do this podcast about a country, just one, because literature is rich and deep and broad. So we're not comprehensive. We're trying to be representative and entertaining.

SPEAKER_06 15:14

Exactly. I mean, the book show on geopaths, I usually limit it to one expat in one country with one book. Some of the guests are like, can I do two five books, six books? I'm like, no, I want a deep dive. I want it to be about your experience with the book and the country and the culture shock and all that stuff. And we can't do that with multiple books. Do you limit the a number of books that you mention in a particular episode at all?

SPEAKER_07 15:36

I mean, the outline is five, right? We talk about five great books, but of course, in the on the way to talking about five books, there's always Yeah, there's always another one. There's always that reminds me of this or whatever. And then we frequently have a guest, and that we ask that guest about books that they thought evoke that place, and that leads into more.

SPEAKER_05 15:58

I am notorious for saying, can I add a half book? Because often, for example, in our Mexico episode, I wanted to make sure I recommended just a straight-up page-turning beach read. And I read two books that fit into that category that I liked equally well. So I talked about one and then I mentioned the other one with just a shorter description because two beach reads is even better than one.

SPEAKER_06 16:23

Summer Rylander, who's a travel writer and podcaster, we started a podcast creatively complicated. We did a season and doing the opposite of you, where she started the blog for years and now she's going to do the podcast, Eat Something, Go Somewhere. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is she's the one who told me about your podcast. And so I said, Hey, I'm interviewing them. What questions do you have? And this is her question. How exciting. I hope it sounds exciting because when I read, I sound like a robot. So I hope I can get some questions in here. She says, Would love to know more about their planning process for each episode specifically. And do they read all of their books within two weeks between episodes? Or do they take really good notes on everything they read just in case? That is a good question.

SPEAKER_07 17:09

Yeah, I was gonna say actually, the problem with the reading is not researching the books, it's scheduling the books so that you're done by the time the podcast needs to be recorded. And we know what we're gonna do a few months in advance right now. And so we target our personal reading lives around that. So we might read a book six months before we sit down to actually talk about it. And we try not to tell each other about our books until we're sitting down for the podcast. So there can be situations where one of us is super excited about this really cool book, but I'm not gonna tell you. That part has been really hard.

SPEAKER_05 17:48

Yeah, that part is hard because we read so differently from each other that our book discussions were really fun because I would, you know, we would get to hear about books that are really different than anything we would pick up. But it does make the podcast really fun because our reactions are genuine.

SPEAKER_06 18:04

I can't even fathom that that must be so hard to keep in. I mean, you read them six sometimes six months before you record. So you're holding on to those reactions for six months.

SPEAKER_05 18:13

I take very extensive notes when I finish a book. As soon as I finish a book, I have this little form that I made for myself where I put in the flap copy and like the number of pages and the year it was published, and then my kind of emotional reactions to it, as well as why I think it's good for strong sense of place, so that when it comes time to write the script or write the book page for the website, I have all that info there. But some of these books that are on our website now are things that I read 20 years ago. You know, I've been a lifelong reader, so the early stuff on the site is kind of digging back into my personal archives. Dave, do you have a form too?

SPEAKER_07 18:51

Nope. She was saying all that, and I was like, boy, that sounds like a really good idea. Wish I did that.

SPEAKER_05 18:58

If only someone had created the form and shared it on our database. Uh oh, book guilt just happened.

SPEAKER_07 19:05

A couple of days before we sit down to do the podcast, I have like a writing day basically where I go and look at the notes I took on the book and I read reviews and I try to figure out what the writer's been up to since, so that I am prepared to sit down and talk about that book for 15 minutes or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 19:22

I lied. I feel like I have another book question because I write all over my books. I have been known to take chapters out if it's a big book and like tear up the book and carry bits with me. How do you guys handle your physical books if you read physical books?

SPEAKER_05 19:35

Uh we are both hardcore Kindle readers. And this was a late-in-life thing for me. I think Dave had a Kindle probably five-ish years before I did.

SPEAKER_07 19:44

Yeah, I think so. And you were strongly against that.

SPEAKER_05 19:48

I was. I was very anti because at the time I liked to hold a book. I really like the sound that pages make when you turn them. I still do. But in 2012, we were going on a six-week trip, and I knew that there was no way I could carry enough books to keep me satisfied for six weeks. And Dave had a hand-me-down Kindle that he wasn't using anymore, and he lent it to me for the trip. And by the time we got back, I was 100% committed to it. And the reason why is kind of embarrassing, but I'm gonna share it with you and everyone who's listening. If you have the right kind of case on your Kindle, you can put the Kindle on its side and you can lie on your side with your head on the pillow and not have to hold the book. And when I realized that I could literally lie in bed with my hands underneath the pillow, kind of in the fetal position, and still read my book, I was sold. I mean, it's great that you can carry thousands of books in your purse, whatever. Laying on your side, hands free to read, heaven. But you still have to turn pages with it, don't you? Yeah, but it's a touch screen, so like one little flick of my pinky and that page turns.

SPEAKER_06 20:54

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_05 20:56

So literally when it's cold, I have the blanket up to my neck, and then when it's time to turn a page, I poke one finger out from under the blanket and turn the page and pull my finger back under the blanket.

SPEAKER_07 21:06

I'll also say that there are like whole categories of books where a Kindle just won't do at all that are designed or well put together, or you know, the type is such, or it's graphical. I read a lot of graphic novels. I haven't the iPad thing is not working for me for graphic novels. I mean, it'll work, I can read it, but I much prefer tactile high-res images and pages in that case. So I guess we try to be smart about what we read in Kindle and what we read in print.

SPEAKER_05 21:35

I also should admit that when we travel, we always go to bookstores wherever we're visiting. And I always buy at least one, but usually three, physical books because I love bookstores. I want them to continue to exist. I think they're absolutely essential for the world. And we always see books in the bookshelves of a physical shop that I haven't seen online, even though I'm really plugged into the new books that are coming out, because different countries get different books and different things get translated in different countries. So we have bookshelves here in our flat that are overflowing. So even though I read on the Kindle, I often will buy the physical book and then also get it on the Kindle and read it that way and keep just keep the physical book on my shelf because I like looking at it.

SPEAKER_06 22:21

Yeah, I I do different forms of books for different things. I have some eye issues. So sometimes it's hard for me, especially if I can only find it. In small print. So I do audiobooks for that stuff. Or if the author's reading it, oh, I'm really tempted to do an audiobook. Or I'll do a paper book for certain things. But I'm not really keen on hardcover because I like to bend. I haven't gotten into the Kindle thing yet. I saw the perfect size one yesterday on the train. It was clearly not mine. And I was like, oh, mental notes. That one I might be tempted in because the the glossiness was just right. It wasn't too flat, it wasn't glossy. You made me think of another podcast about books. It's called Ex Libris.

SPEAKER_05 23:01

Oh yeah, I know that one. It's so good.

SPEAKER_06 23:04

First episode I heard of his, I was like, yes! Libraries and bookstores, right? He's doing both of those. Yeah. Exit.

SPEAKER_08 23:12

Every moment ago me.

SPEAKER_06 23:16

Hey Steph here. I just want to take a moment to tell you about Pod Rev Day. What in the world is that? It's podcast review day. First and foremost, it happens on March 8th. So you're going to hear this on March 6th, maybe March 7th, maybe September 7th. I don't know when you're going to listen to this. But know that every 8th of every month, we're doing Pod Rev Day. Uh on stefffuccio.com forward slash podrev day, P-O-D-R-E-V-D-A-Y. I have the history and all that kind of stuff if you want to read up on why it started. But basically, what we do is we review one podcast we love and tweet it or put it on Instagram at this point. We're in two places with the hashtag P-O-D-R-E-V D A Y. Why are we doing this? We're doing this because podcasters, trust me on this, spend a ton of time giving you free content and enriching your life. And we need one day a month where we say thank you to those podcasters. So that's what PodRev Day is. If you're listening to this on the day it comes out, you've got two days to get your review ready. Now, you can review anywhere and then post a screenshot or if there's a share function there. You can drag that over into Twitter or Instagram. However you want to do it, just use the hashtag PodRev Day.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

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SPEAKER_01 24:58

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SPEAKER_02 25:01

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SPEAKER_06 25:29

I'm using Podchaser because unlike other review platforms, you don't have to have a specific device and it doesn't divide things up by country. So everybody in the world on any device in the world can view the same reviews on Podchaser. However you do it, I really hope that you join us for this or all of the podrev days that we have in 2020. We will be expanding beyond Twitter and Instagram eventually. Please spread the word anywhere that you are about this day. And thank you. Thank you for telling podcasters why they are making an impact on your life. Let's get back to Mel and Dave.

SPEAKER_08 26:03

Each and every passing way as if our eyes will have today.

SPEAKER_06 26:09

Okay, so wow, we we got down in the weeds with the books, which is, I mean, that's what you do. So so far I have choose the destination, choose the books, reading and note-taking, and then what's the next step?

SPEAKER_05 26:21

So the beginning of the podcast, I do what we call the 101 of the destination. And David does Two Truths and a Lie, where he quizzes me, which is really fun. But also sometimes I feel like I sound like a ding-dong. When I'm researching the 101, I feel like my job is to kind of set the scene for people who aren't familiar with the destination that we're talking about. So I'm trying to do your basic maybe fourth grade social studies class overview of where this place is, roughly how large it is, what languages are spoken there, what currency, just to give a basic idea. And then I try to find something book or literature related to kind of bring that piece of what we do into the understanding of the destination. I'm trying to make it interesting and fun and set context because not everyone knows where every country is, including me.

SPEAKER_06 27:19

And where do you pull that information from?

SPEAKER_05 27:21

National Geographic Kids is a really good place to get started because they have taken the kind of thing that, you know, a fact-loving um Guinness Book of World Records kind of kid would be interested in. I loved the Guinness Book of World Records when I was little, so that's always a good place to start. The tourism heroes for countries are also a good place to just kind of get a general overview. I think I got an idea from watching Jeopardy one night. Lots of times I Google historical libraries and just see what shows up. That's how I found the oldest library in the world in Fez, Morocco. So yeah, just lots of research, digging, taking little tidbits out of other things I've read. And Dave, how do you prep for the Two Truths and a Lie?

SPEAKER_07 28:09

Two Truths and a Lie start with Googling things you didn't know about X. Um X is the country. And that usually leads me in interesting directions, although many of the pages tend to re-repeat what the other ones say. And the trickiest part of Two Truths and a Lie is writing a lie that sounds plausible. So I'm always looking out for something where, for instance, uh Morocco's about the size of California. You can't really turn that into a lie that's interesting. Morocco is not the size of California. Uh, you know, it's uh so there's a like a writing process there of trying to figure out something where it's plausible enough to be interesting.

SPEAKER_05 28:50

Plus, I'm very clever, so if you don't make those lies really good, I will figure them out.

SPEAKER_07 28:55

Plus, she's catching on to my tricks, too.

SPEAKER_05 28:58

Oh no.

SPEAKER_07 29:00

So that there's an escalating war of lying in our house now.

SPEAKER_05 29:04

And we try not to share too much of our scripting so that it sounds authentic when we're recording, and every once in a while, one of us will both have the same thing in the 101 or in the two truths and a lie, and then it's a fight to the death to see who gets to keep it.

SPEAKER_06 29:20

How long did it take you to come up with the format of the podcast?

SPEAKER_09 29:25

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_05 29:26

No. I'm glad you asked that because we went back and forth on what the introduction of the podcast should be for months. We did a couple of practice podcasts over the summer, which when we were recording them, we thought were going to be real ones. We did not realize we were doing dress rehearsals. We thought they were legit. We are recording our Prague podcast now, and then we listened to it and we hated it so much. So there was some trial and error with the intro, and I feel like we've landed on a thing that feels comfortable. The thing that I was really worried about was we can't set ourselves up as experts on really any of these places. Even Prague. We live here, we are not experts on Prague. We're only experts on our experience of Prague. Or literature. So we were trying to figure out a way to give an overview in the introduction that made people as excited about it as we are and recognized that we knew these things because we were curious about it and did some research, not because we are the authority on this place. We're all learning together. I feel like we're telling our audience things and they are responding to us, and we're all learning about these places together.

SPEAKER_06 30:36

And I think that's the beauty of podcasting, is it it had it's a very comfortable space to be the curious person and not the expert and still have momentum building an audience. As long as you don't claim to be when you're not, it's it's a safe space to be very curious. And I love being curious. I do too. Okay, wait, let me back up. Do you plan an entire season before you even start recording that season?

SPEAKER_09 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:58

Yes. I feel like seasoned podcasters are gonna hear what I'm about to say and just roll on the floor laughing. But our original intent was to record all 12 episodes before we started releasing any of them so that we would always be one season ahead. Didn't happen. So tragically, did not happen.

SPEAKER_06 31:20

It's hard to get that much in without any feedback at all.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

We had set the we knew when we wanted to launch. We had we'd kind of rescheduled our launch several times and we put a stake in the ground. I think I actually said to Dave, if we don't launch the podcast on this day, I'm not doing it at all. If we can't make it out into the world, I'm not doing it at all. It was a really bratty moment. So now we're in a situation where we're about halfway through our season, our first season, and we are two weeks ahead.

SPEAKER_06 31:52

Which is not which is not a whole season ahead. No, but it's still far, it's still ahead.

SPEAKER_05 31:58

We're yes, we're a comfortable enough distance ahead. And then between seasons, we'll take a little break and we are trying to figure out how we're going to schedule the second season so that we are more ahead than this.

SPEAKER_06 32:13

If you get too far ahead, then you can't incorporate things that the audience might feed back to you into the episode until months later. And that's always frustrating as the listener. Yeah. Where's that sweet spot of how far ahead to be is very tricky.

SPEAKER_07 32:26

It is.

SPEAKER_06 32:27

But those episodes that you didn't use, are you going to repurpose them at all? Or are they have are they long gone? They were terrible. The six months of most podcasts, of most independent podcasts, are awful. I have an entire year of why is this still online? But I I intentionally keep it up there so that new podcasters can hear it and go, oh, there's a big difference here. And it's like, yes, there's a big difference.

SPEAKER_05 32:51

Yeah, the the practice ones were actually our first three episodes that we redid and launched. So Prague, Japan, and Mexico were the ones that we did for practice, and they're in an archive forever.

SPEAKER_07 33:05

I mean, we reused the content.

SPEAKER_05 33:06

But it was the exact same content. Yeah. It's just presented with more polish confidence, I think.

SPEAKER_07 33:13

A little bit, a little bit more confidence.

SPEAKER_06 33:15

It's so good you did practice episodes. I didn't even know I was going to be podcasting. I just thought I have a few things I want to say. This is very easy and quick. Let's just do this. And then two years later.

SPEAKER_07 33:25

I feel like that's the inverse of the kind of people we are, because you know, left our own devices will sit there and be like, oh, it's not quite right, maybe over here. And I think that was kind of the beauty of Mel saying, okay, it's January 20th or nothing, you know? And that was like, all right, so now that's the requirement. We're going to change our behavior based on that requirement. And part of our behavior now is we're going to record, you know, four in advance and release those and see what happens. It was important.

SPEAKER_05 33:49

Dave and I have a really good natural tension in our working relationship, which is we're both planners. So that works really well. Like we know we have to plan and we do that together. But I am on the spectrum of it's good enough to, I will make this perfect. I fall more towards the it's done, it's good enough, let's go. Whereas he has very high standards and will keep working on something until it's closer to his ideal. And what that does is it kind of brings both of us more towards the middle. So I don't get away with my slap ass behavior as often. And Dave doesn't get to sit and play with something forever anymore. That's true.

SPEAKER_06 34:29

That is a good compromise. And it's good that you have those checks and balances because doing it solo, I just was producing crap for a long time. But it was fun. I learned, and I can definitely hear the difference as time went on. There is nobody to say that maybe a little bit more polished. And you don't know when you start how much there is to know about the recording side, the editing side. There's it's like, oh, this is easy. I just record and upload it. Oh, I'm done. And then the avalanche happens. How did you learn about all of the steps of doing a podcast? Did you guys have podcasting experience or recording experience before all this?

SPEAKER_07 35:05

So I have a degree in film and television from NYU that I got in 1987.

SPEAKER_05 35:13

That was a really long time ago, bro.

SPEAKER_07 35:15

Long, long time ago.

SPEAKER_06 35:18

Bio mentioned your I don't want to say drawings, your your art.

SPEAKER_07 35:21

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did that too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:24

I mean, you got your degree before everything was digital. Yes. Exactly. Crazy pants.

SPEAKER_07 35:29

Exactly that. And so when I was working in audio, we were cutting it on tape. And that makes me feel like I'm a thousand. Um, but that's what it happened. And we've been working in the digital space since there was a digital space. So some of that transfers. But you know, it was a lot of watching YouTube videos and seeing what people were doing and how they were talking about it. And Mel and I say that sometimes this project feels like a cumulation of everything we've ever done. And I think that's true, right? There's skills that we built to different places all along the way, and all of them have come to use now. And it's great.

SPEAKER_06 36:03

Is there any other research that you do other than like we did the intro, we talked about the intro, we talked about the um how you selected the books themselves. The guests, that's right, yeah. How does that work?

SPEAKER_07 36:15

A lot of the guests we know.

SPEAKER_05 36:17

We got really lucky with our first handful of guests because they were we know some smart, talented people.

SPEAKER_07 36:22

I think we've only done four interviews, and of those, we knew a couple of them beforehand. One of them was an old buddy of man, mine from high school who just happened, I just happened to find out that he was perfect for what we were talking about. And one of them was through a she's a travel uh blogger and writer, and she does tours. And so we got in touch with her and said, Hey, would you be interested in doing this? And she said yes.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Our original plan was to have a guest on every episode. And then as we got into the first season, we realized we weren't gonna get them all done in time if we did that. So I feel like we should roll back a little bit and say there were two big decisions that we made when we were launching this podcast that had huge impact on the quality of our life right now. First was we thought we were going to do a weekly podcast. And second is that we thought we were going to keep the format that we have where we talk about the books, but also have a guest on every episode. And we were gonna do all 12 of them in advance. That didn't happen. So we had a very significant day where we just did the thought experiment of what if we released our podcasts every other week instead? We're not saying that's what we're gonna do. We're just gonna think about it for a minute. And we realized if we did that, our lives would open up again. And it was the same thing with the guests. We realized let's have some guests this season, get our feet under us, and then figure out how we want to do it next season. And it turns out that I think people are enjoying the interviews and they're they've been more fun to do than we anticipated. So I think it's worth doing. And it's a good way to connect with other people. So now we're looking at travel blogs and travel podcasts to look for people who can speak comfortably about the places that we're going to be covering in our second season.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

Hello, and welcome to the Keep. My name is Dylan C and I'm the night reader. Would you join me? a lamp lit in the doorway. Yeah, on the round table. Oh, and have a seat. I've prepared a wonderful story for you.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

I'd like to take a look at inspiration as a whole and what moves us as humans towards physical action. My literary analysis and inspirational podcast is about just that. It's full of new and upcoming artists, writers, young influencers, and long-standing figures of motivation. I move through difficult texts and interpret them in a way that anyone can understand, as well as adding my personal flavor of voiced characters and musical themes to the mix. This is a show where you can educate yourself, learn about yourself, feel inspired to follow your own passion, share your writings, poetry, relax and enjoy some stories. The round table has enough room for all those who are willing. You can find me on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, and anywhere else you can find podcasts. Also follow me on Instagram, and I welcome you to join me on the Night Reader Podcast.

SPEAKER_06 39:40

So have you had any surprising feedback from your listeners? We got a one-star review today. That is so awesome.

SPEAKER_05 39:46

Already!

SPEAKER_06 39:47

Do you want to read it?

SPEAKER_07 39:48

People have been generally positive.

SPEAKER_05 39:50

Like overwhelmingly, so sweetly positive.

SPEAKER_07 39:54

But of course, you can see like a thousand good reviews, but it's the one where you're like, ugh. And so this morning we got one.

SPEAKER_06 40:00

They say when you get your first one-star review, you've arrived. No, I'm not, I'm totally not kidding.

SPEAKER_05 40:06

And we pulled right into the station today. Okay, here we go. The title is stick to the blog. And the comment is the blog has book recommendations, and you don't have to suffer through the constant giggling. No, seriously. Go back and count how many times laughter ensues at the close of sentences that are not remotely funny.

SPEAKER_07 40:28

Ow. Wow. I know.

SPEAKER_06 40:31

And to that I say, Wait, they're against laughter?

SPEAKER_07 40:36

Yeah, now I'm working on being more dour.

SPEAKER_05 40:38

I think my favorite part is that they're against laughter, but they're like, but if you go to her website, you can get her good book recommendations.

SPEAKER_06 40:45

So they like your content, but not the fact that you're jovial about books.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

Yeah. I think they just don't like us. And I am okay with that because you know what? I don't like them either.

SPEAKER_06 40:56

I don't like them and I don't even know their handle. But I just that's ridiculous. I'll give them this. At least it's a specific critique. A lot of one star reviews that I've heard have been like, this sucks. And you're like, well, what sucks? Yeah. You weren't even specific about it. That's true. That is actionable feedback, which I will ignore. Please ignore it. I love the fact that you guys love what you're doing when you're recording this stuff. I mean, it's good to have one of those. You guys are all over the place online. You've got the website, you're on Instagram. Love your pictures on Instagram. You're on Twitter too, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_07 41:28

Twitter, Facebook.

SPEAKER_06 41:29

Facebook. Small, small. Is there any place you're not?

SPEAKER_07 41:32

Um TikTok, YouTube, Tinder.

SPEAKER_06 41:37

I don't think that's used for podcasting collections that much. I suppose that's an undertapped market for it, right?

SPEAKER_05 41:44

We are also not active on LinkedIn, and someone told us the other day that LinkedIn has been such a great place for them to promote. And then I banged my head against the table.

SPEAKER_07 41:53

Yeah, my dislike of LinkedIn is pretty strong. I get that.

SPEAKER_06 41:57

And I would definitely not build up a presence where you don't like being, because that comes across. I don't like Pinterest. I just don't click with Pinterest. And people keep saying, oh, but it's a great place for this audience and this age group and that fits people that might listen to my stuff. But I do not like the format. I don't like going there. I don't consume anything there. And it's just, it would be disingenuous if I were to create a presence there. So the only advantage of LinkedIn, I'll say, is that for China and other places with strong firewalls, it's generally a place they can get to right now. But I've been on there for a long time and I have seen the resurgence in the past year or two, and I'm kind of having a little bit of fun over there. But I'm mostly a Twitter gal. I also like Twitter. I hate Facebook. I'm only on there for two groups, and then people find me and friend me, and I don't have the heart to say no. That sounds familiar. But I don't follow anything they're doing. If the two groups I liked on Facebook were anywhere else, I would close down the account again. I was off Facebook for over a decade. Wow. Just don't like it. So that sounds like all of the researchy part. And then there's the recording and the editing and all that stuff, and we're not going deep dive into that. And setting up the blanket for it. Don't forget that.

SPEAKER_09 43:02

Of course. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 43:03

Have you ever timed it? How long does it take you to set it up? Oh, it not long. Five minutes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 43:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:08

And to finish off with hot with podcasts, are you guys big podcast listeners?

SPEAKER_07 43:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 43:14

Don't answer it like it's a question.

SPEAKER_07 43:17

What qualifies as a big podcast listener?

SPEAKER_06 43:20

Do you spend more time making or listening to podcasts?

SPEAKER_07 43:24

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 43:27

I don't think that's actually the qualifier. I was just trying to make something up really quick, and that clearly didn't come out right.

SPEAKER_07 43:33

I probably do spend more time cutting than I do listening. Although, because I'll sit down and cut for, you know, I'll take an hour of audio and cut that for, I don't know, a day. So I probably don't listen to eight hours of podcasts every day. But I do listen to a lot of podcasts. I listen to uh maybe I think I subscribe to around 50 podcasts, and I probably keep up with, I don't know, six to eight of those routinely. We'll take walks here and put on the headphones and listen to somebody talking about something.

SPEAKER_05 44:03

I listen to a lot more podcasts in the spring and summer because I go walking every day. In the winter, my walking time has cut down, so I haven't been listening quite as much. But I also subscribe to about 50. But I have a slightly different situation than Dave in that every week on the blog I do a post called Endnotes, where I round up interesting book and travel related links for the week. And I also I also recommend a book podcast and a travel podcast. So every week I'm on the hunt for some really compelling episode. And eventually I will repeat the individual podcasts that I've been featuring, but I always feature one episode, so I'm pointing people to something specific. So I have a big full list of travel and book podcasts that I rely on to do that. But I can't keep up with all of those, obviously. But I do listen to the episodes that I recommend. That's a good thing. That's a good thing. There is nothing anywhere on our stuff that we have not consumed in this entire day.

SPEAKER_06 45:03

I think I was subscribing to about 50 or 60 before I started podcasting. And then I just loved hearing what other people were doing, and I started experimenting with different bits that other people were doing. And I've been hovering around, subscribe to 200 for a while now. But I read show notes now, even for podcasts that I like. Sometimes I'll read the show notes and go, do I want to listen to this or do I want to dig into the show notes and the links? Sometimes I'll just listen to the beginning just to get kind of like updates and get a feel for the guest and stuff if they have a guest on. So I I don't listen to everything. I couldn't ever do that. But there's so much amazing content out there. And I'm excited that you guys are adding to all of that.

SPEAKER_05 45:41

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 45:42

So remind our listeners where they can find you online.

SPEAKER_07 45:46

We are at strongsenseofplace.com and on Instagram is strong sense of and Twitter strong sense of and Facebook as strong sense of place.

SPEAKER_06 45:57

I see a pattern here. Strong, strong sense of pattern. No, it's a bad joke.

SPEAKER_09 46:01

It is.

SPEAKER_08 47:18

As if I rise the last day The sweetest music, the greenest will green On the symphony of heart. It is a work of art. I will remain. I will remain Loving you is the reason why I came. I will remain. I will remain The world will change, but I will always stay the same. Forever is not nearly long enough for me to love you. I will remain. Loving you is the reason why I came. I will remain Loving you is the reason why I came.

unknown 48:47

I will be made. I will be made.

SPEAKER_08 48:53

The world will change, and I will always stay the same. I will be made.

unknown 49:01

I will be made.

SPEAKER_08 49:04

Nothing you is the reason why I came. I will be made. I will be made. The world of change and I will always stay the same.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

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SPEAKER_02 49:31

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