Pet culture shock in China?

The first year in a new country is always the hardest. Evan did what I did, he took to writing a blog to sort out the think through what he was seeing, experiencing and feeling. In this conversation we revisit an early blog post of his from when he first arrived in China. We chat about dogs, language and so many more nuanced aspects of Chinese (and American) culture. 

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Transcript

Evan Pinto:

My blog was called Pinto Bean and Rice. My name is Evan Pinto and Pinto is funny for bean, pinto bean. And China is the place that grows rice. So I said pinto bean and rice. My mother thought it was funny.

Steph Fuccio:

It is funny.

Evan Pinto:

So I started writing it in 2006 and the tagline is My adventures and experiences as I relocate from downtown New York City to a Shanghai suburb to teach English for a year. And that's what I did. I taught English in Jiaxing, which is about, I don't know, about an hour away from Shanghai. And when I lived there in 2006, there was no Gautia, there was no fast train. So it took like a full two hours to get there. Now I think it takes like 20 minutes on the fast train.

Steph Fuccio:

Wow. So how far into the blog is this? Like how many weeks or months?

Evan Pinto:

So I started the blog in 2006. I moved here in August and this is in September.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, well, pretty soon after. Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So I moved here, as most people do, on a tourist visa. And then I had to go to Hong Kong and change the tourist visa into a work visa. And so this is a observational post that I had when I was going to Shenzhen and Hong Kong. And, so this is what I called it. You can tell a lot about a place from its dogs.

Steph Fuccio:

Awesome.

Evan Pinto:

There are many differences between cities of differing socioeconomic capabilities, but one that I recently observed and that may not be as well known as gross domestic product, unemployment rates, infant birth rates, dropout rates, et cetera, is purebred versus mixed breed dogs. Here in Jiaxing, I have only seen a couple of Shih Tzus and Pekingese being walked on their leashes by their middle-aged owners, and I have not noticed young people with dogs at all. The remaining dogs I have seen have been mutts, mixes, and worst of all, to Americans, feral street dogs. Jiaxing is full of homeless canines, breaks my heart. I want to take every dog without a collar to my apartment and feed it, bathe it, and let it know that it's loved. But that would be a little overwhelming and slightly impossible and more than expensive. I have asked my Chinese friends if China has dog catchers. And they said, what do you mean? What is this thing that catches dogs? From the response, I could tell that China doesn't. but I've also seen the other side of this canine conundrum. I flew to Shenzhen and Hong Kong to transfer my tourist visa to a work visa. And Shenzhen is a city born in the last 20 years, now 30 years, from a special economic declaration and development. It has grown from a rinky-dink farming trading post to an ultra-modern city of more than 5 million people, and nowadays it's probably 10 million. In Shenzhen there are many well-to-do people. I was at a Starbucks Monday evening around 10 p.m. and it was packed. All these rich folk have a lot of leisure time. But then it happened. Two gorgeous purebred Huskies came walking along the promenade. They stopped in front of the shop and let their owner get a coffee. They were the center of attention. Everybody was eyeing them and oohing and ahhing. They were really pretty. Then all of a sudden, from underneath the table next to me, a fawn-colored Pekingese started barking. I didn't even see her until she barked. So well-behaved. The Huskies paid her no mind, too cool for school. Then to my delight, two Westies showed up, and then a big white puff of a dog came along. I don't remember what the breed name is. The Starbucks veranda was an impromptu dog run. and I was very happy because I think dogs rule. So I started to think about the differences between Jiaxing and Shenzhen. Jiaxing is a manufacturing factory town of about 500,000 people and 4 million in the district. Shenzhen is a financial services, IT, fashion production city of 5 million with Hong Kong next door, which has 8 million, and Guangzhou, 4 to 5 million just down the highway. the point is the financially more developed regions have more purebred dogs. The richer the city, the more purebred dogs they have. Think about it. New York is almost all purebreds and West Virginia has a reputation of, well, let's just say it doesn't have the same reputation as New York City. See, travel really does broaden and enlighten and educate. I'm smarter because of it, and now so are you. So get a dog. People will think you're rich here in China.

Steph Fuccio:

Particular post right now because I feel like the dog culture in China and Shanghai specifically has blown up to a huge degree. I'm just curious why, when you were looking at your blog post to share on Rewind, why you chose this one.

Evan Pinto:

Well, because about two years ago, a friend of mine Got a job transfer back to America, back to Chicago. And she had two dogs. And the job transfer happened really quickly, so she couldn't take her dogs. So, and she asked me if I knew someone who could take her dogs. And I was like, how about I take your dogs? And when you find a place that you can live that allows dogs, then we'll send the dogs to America. And so we can have family reunification. Well, it took her two years to find a place to live. So I had three dogs. I have my dog, Buddy. Say hi, buddy.

Steph Fuccio:

He's sitting here with us right now.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah. Bored out of his mind. And then Hua Hua and George lived here too. Just last month they finally were sent to America. So, yeah. I think about them. I miss them a little bit, yeah. But I was really happy to have been able to take care of them and be of service to my friend, you know. and I get pictures all the time about them. They, they live right on Lake Michigan, so they get to go to the beach, the beach or the shoreline, whatever you call it. And I get pictures of them. So, yeah. And our buddy is, you know, the coolest dog ever. And, you know, but they just, I love dolls. Yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

What is your take on the changes in pet dogs in China since you arrived in 2006.

Evan Pinto:

In the less rich areas, in the socioeconomically challenged areas, dogs are protection. And in the richer areas, purebred dogs are a status symbol. And I don't think that much has changed. But what I have seen in the last six years of living in Shanghai, that the rescue industry or the rescue community has really blossomed. And there's hardly any loose dogs in Shanghai.

Steph Fuccio:

That was something I noted while you were reading it, because I was like, feral dogs? I have seen so few in Shanghai. But so many pet dogs. And to be fair, I used to live in the French Concession, and there were a lot of what I'm guessing were purebred dogs, very, very expensive dogs. kind of not show dogs, but very, very status symbol dogs.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, yeah. I do see a lot of them, but I also see a lot of rescue dogs with their Weigoren, Foreigner owners and stuff, you know? And, you know, Buddy's a rescue dog, so I'm in tune with the rescue people. Yeah. And my we chat every day is this dog was found, this cat is found, you know, all that stuff.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

And, you know, a couple years ago I was talking to somebody about it and I don't know if this is right, but this is the rumor. Shanghai, you know, it's a hub, an industry hub town. So there's a lot of foreigners that live and work here and they bring their families with them. So there's a lot of foreigners, spouses, husband and/or wife, who are not working because the other spouse is working. And so the spouse that doesn't work, you call it the trailing spouse. They have nothing to do. So they do a lot of charity work. And one of the first charities that really got a lot of attention here in Shanghai was the Rescue Dog Charities. So the rescue industry or community really took care of the dog. And so that's why Shanghai doesn't have a lot of Street dogs.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah, when I lived in Taiwan in 2003-2004, there were a ton, the majority of dogs that I saw were, I don't think they were feral so much as they were just homeless. Wait, is feral, that's when there's something wrong with the wild?

Evan Pinto:

No, no, I think feral just means-.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, I'm thinking of rabbit.

Evan Pinto:

Rabbit.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah, there's a difference between feral and rabbit.

Evan Pinto:

That's different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

But there were many, many, many. And at that time in the city that I was in, which was not Taipei, it was down in Tainan, having a pet, whether it be any animal, was not common yet. I don't know what it is today. Did many people have pets in Jiaxing back?

Evan Pinto:

Not many, no. But, you know, I'd see dogs every day.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Maybe one or two.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

But, you know, my life is kind of small. It was my apartment and my school and the restaurants that I went to. I just stayed in one area.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Right. Here in Shanghai, because I walk the dog all the time and walk a lot of different places, I see a lot of dogs. And one of the other things is there's a certain type of local person who's very scared of dogs.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, describe that.

Evan Pinto:

Well, I would say middle-aged women, grandmothers with their grandchild, their preschool grandchild. And sometimes people who are just walking down the street on their phone, they all get nervous really quickly. And Buddy, my dog, he doesn't even see them. So it's just kind of funny to me that they would get scared and cross the street. and we get startled.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Right. But they also get startled five feet away from me, even though they saw me coming a hundred feet away. I'm like, you see me coming, so why are you all of a sudden getting scared?

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So it's just something that I have to deal with. Sometimes I think it's because I'm a foreigner with a dog.

Steph Fuccio:

Right.

Evan Pinto:

Because I see Chinese people with dogs not having that same moment.

Steph Fuccio:

So is the reaction to you, to the dog, or to the pairing?

Evan Pinto:

Probably the pairing.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

But I'd have to be able to read their mind to really find out.

Steph Fuccio:

Okay, let's go do it. Let's go. I did hear recently from a local that maybe part of the reason for that is there were some families that, some local families who took in dogs and didn't really know how to train them and whatnot, and there were some attacks with the children. There were some injuries. So I don't know if that's possible too.

Evan Pinto:

I mean, that has happened in America too.

Steph Fuccio:

Sure, sure.

Evan Pinto:

When I was in medical school back in New York, I had a dog walking business.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, yeah. You're right about, I read to him in that. Yeah, yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So I, I walked dogs for seven years while I was in school. I don't know lots of stories about that. But you know, sometimes people, they have a dog and then the couple gets pregnant and then they give up the dog.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't want to judge anybody because people do what they need to do.

Steph Fuccio:

Right.

Evan Pinto:

But, sometimes you just have to train the dog on how to interact with the infant.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

And some people just don't want to do that.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So it's not just Chinese is my point. No.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh no, no. Hardly anything is just one culture. Yeah. That's one thing that I noticed by doing this project is so many of the things that I thought were so Taiwanese, that's the blog. The blog I'm reading on a continuous basis on this this podcast is from my time in Taiwan when I was so quick to say, this is so Taiwanese, this is awful, why did they do this? And then coming back years later going, that's people.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

That's just people.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

Slightly embarrassing for myself 14 years ago, but. Right.

Evan Pinto:

Well, we have to, everyone has a journey. Everyone has a learning curve, even us.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

I'm a person just like anybody else.

Steph Fuccio:

But going back to the rest, the dog rescue community, are there local Shanghai organizations that are doing as well.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there's a lot. There's Jaya's, which is where I got Buddy from. And then there's SCAA, Second Chance, Animal Adoption, PAWS. Oh, yeah, there's so many.

Steph Fuccio:

Why are there so many dogs needing rescuing? What's happening?

Evan Pinto:

I think it's the transient nature of the expat community. People come here for a year or two or three, and then they want to, like, dig in and have a, some normalcy to their life. I mean, they love dogs from home. It's right. They can't bring their dog here or they get a dog because one, there's a lot of dogs up for adoption. And then they realize that they can't take it out or their job transfer happens to a country that is just too difficult. So people come and go, but the dogs don't as easily, as readily.

Steph Fuccio:

I am just barely scratching the surface on learning the Chinese language, but I know you are. fluent upon fluent.

Evan Pinto:

No, I'm not.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, you're being modest.

Evan Pinto:

No, I'm not. Actually, I, I can say I'm out in Chinese, but I can't understand. I'm a terrible ear.

Steph Fuccio:

There's a lot of different accents. And being in Shanghai, there's a lot of people from a lot of places. Yeah. So I, we can blame that.

Evan Pinto:

Okay.

Steph Fuccio:

Okay. So I'm wondering, I'm wondering if there are linguistically things and or terms or any language things that have developed as the dog culture has grown in China and or Shanghai that have. that you've heard and you go, oh, that's a new one, or that's an interesting language bit.

Evan Pinto:

No, I'm sorry, I don't. I can't think of anything. Like dog vernacular that has gone into the zeitgeist of the community.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I keep, I don't know, when I was teaching writing, I would, there were some things that would just automatically come out of my mouth as I was talking about writing. I was like, oh, I'm in a teaching context. That's probably not appropriate. Not, not crude, but just sort of less formal. And sometimes I would say something like doggy dog world. And I'm like, and I'd start to think about it. And I go, is that too cruel? Wait, why does that phrase even exist? The etymology of it. Yeah, dog eat dog. Where is that place where dogs are even doing that? That we're, I mean, there isn't, right? I mean, it's just bizarre phrase. Yeah, dogs don't eat dogs. Right? So, I mean, it's not like it came from somewhere real and we're comparing ourselves to that. It's a phrase that was created at some point for some reason to highlight the awfulness and greediness of doggy nature, which isn't even true.

Evan Pinto:

True.

Steph Fuccio:

They're nicer than we are most of the time.

Evan Pinto:

Domesticated dogs, yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

That's true.

Evan Pinto:

A couple of years ago, I went to Nepal after the earthquake in Kathmandu to do some volunteer work. And the place that I was staying at was right on the edge of the compound on the street. And my room, the window overlooked this back alley. And there are nightly dog fights, packs of dogs would fight. And it was the most horrible sounds. And I couldn't sleep. And after, I was there for two weeks and I think after like six nights, I was like, yeah, I need a different room. It was a hotel kind of thing. So they gave me a room that was internal and not on the border, the boundary.

Steph Fuccio:

Nice.

Evan Pinto:

And then I could sleep. But yeah, I mean, dogs are vicious when they have to be.

Steph Fuccio:

Okay.

Evan Pinto:

Especially at night. Yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

Okay. But I imagine there'd be some sort of survival-ish reason why they were fighting over resources.

Evan Pinto:

Probably food or territory, you know, the pack animal.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

But as far as any funny sayings on the internet or different cliches, I don't know. Sorry.

Steph Fuccio:

There was a sentence that you said about, I think it was about halfway through, the Richard the City, and you were talking about the dog types changing with the wealth quotient of the population. Does that still ring true? today in the places that you've been in in China?

Evan Pinto:

No, actually, not so much. I think the rescue Community has really grown. And people, at least in the expat Community, people want rescues. They don't want purebreds. Adopt, don't shop. That's the way.

Steph Fuccio:

That's a good.

Evan Pinto:

That's what we say in America. I think the local Chinese population, they do want the purebred dog and those little brown man poodles are very popular because they're well behaved, they're smart, you know, they're pretty, you know, and their nickname in Chinese, not their nickname, but their name in Chinese is Teddy, which sounds like Teddy because they look like teddy bears.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, what does Tadzistan or Tadzistan translate into?

Evan Pinto:

Poodle.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh.

Evan Pinto:

But it's a, it's a, it's, it's a, what's the word? Frenetic. When you translate something like, because it's a sound.

Steph Fuccio:

Sounds like, I don't know the name for that. Linguistic terms.

Evan Pinto:

I forgot what that is. I've said it like 10 million times.

Steph Fuccio:

I wanna say it's almost a loan word, but it's probably.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could say it's a loan word.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So Tadzistan. Is a poodle?

Steph Fuccio:

Okay.

Evan Pinto:

Because they look like teddy bears.

Steph Fuccio:

Poodles look like teddy bears?

Evan Pinto:

In China they do. To Chinese people they do, apparently.

Steph Fuccio:

Huh. Yeah. I have to think about that one.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, it's not logical.

Steph Fuccio:

Their fur is kind of bunched up like that.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, and the way they get them groomed makes them look like that.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah, okay, that's true. But the general structure of a teddy bear versus a poodle, I mean, just the standing.

Evan Pinto:

It's Boston Terrier, for sure.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah. Okay, so in English or in Western culture, there's a lot of comparisons between a dog and its owner, and a lot of people say that the two start to look like each other after time.

Evan Pinto:

I think so, too.

Steph Fuccio:

Is that genuine, does that hold true over here?

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, actually. I've seen, there's a couple women in my neighborhood who have long-haired dogs and floppy-eared dogs, and they have like, Perm bob, you know? And Chinese people don't have curly hair.

Steph Fuccio:

Right. Right.

Evan Pinto:

So these women have perm hair. It's a bob cut. And so they look like they have the dog's ears. That's awesome.

Steph Fuccio:

It's nice to know similarities of places that seem so different. But I don't know, there's something comforting in that that we've put us in some situations where like- Humans are all.

Evan Pinto:

The same and all different at the same time, right? All the places I've ever been, I've always realized, People just want a smile and a please and a thank you or whatever the equivalent is in that culture.

Steph Fuccio:

So true.

Evan Pinto:

That's how I get around the world. Yes. Please and thank you.

Steph Fuccio:

And lots of giggling and making fun of myself and that seems to go very well. So 12 years later, what do you think of your own post? What are your reactions to it?

Evan Pinto:

I would write it differently as a writer. I would write it differently.

Steph Fuccio:

Okay.

Evan Pinto:

But as content, it's fine. I don't know, there's a couple attempts at comedy that fall flat. Let me think again here. Yeah, I mean, to judge my own writing from all those years ago.

Steph Fuccio:

Not just your writing, but the cultural stuff that stuck out to you. Are you surprised by anything that you wrote?

Evan Pinto:

No, I think it still holds true culturally, anthropologically, but I think Data wise, I mean, 12 years ago, Shenzhen had 5 million people. Now it has 15 million people, maybe 10, I don't know, but it's a lot more, right? Guangzhou is the same, right? Hong Kong doesn't really grow because it's an island.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

And I'm sure Jiaxing probably has a million people by now.

Steph Fuccio:

How far is Jiaxing from Shanghai?

Evan Pinto:

I would say it's probably 50 miles.

Steph Fuccio:

Okay.

Evan Pinto:

Just about an hour.

Steph Fuccio:

That's not far at all.

Evan Pinto:

No.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

It's like the first big city outside of the Shanghai metro area. Like Suzhou is north of the lake or on the lake, and Daxing is south of the lake.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, okay. That is very close. Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

How did you- Halfway between here and Hangzhou.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

How did I end up there? Well, when I was an undergrad, I was an Asian studies student and taking Chinese. And I knew that after graduation, I wanted to come live in China for a year and then go back to New York and go to Chinese medicine.

Steph Fuccio:

School for a year.

Evan Pinto:

Have a gap year. And I didn't quite know how to get that all done and stuff. And so one of my Chinese language teachers said that he knew a guy who helps place English teachers. And so he kind of helped me. He found an agency and, you know, just squanchy, just connections. And this agency offered me three jobs. One was in Wenjo, which I didn't know anything about, but it's probably five hour train ride away. Well, and the Wenjo job was kind of like a kindergarten. Or in elementary school. And then the second job they offered me was in Hangzhou, and that was at a technical college. And then the third job they offered me was Jiaxing, which is even closer to Shanghai, and it was at a private school. And I looked at the geography, I looked at the distance, and I was like, well, Shanghai is where I need to be. but I can't get a job there because I don't have any experience. And joshing's just a little bit far away. Not that far away. And it's also like a half an hour from the coastline. And here I'm thinking, oh, I can go to the beach in the afternoon. Little did I know that there is no beach in China because it's just a rocky Coast in water.

Steph Fuccio:

I've done this in a few countries. Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Okay, so. I took Jossing because it was a private school and the name of the school was Jossing Foreign Language School and it was a boarding school and I was like, oh, foreign language school boarding. The kids are always there. I just had visions of like Massachusetts or New Hampshire, you know, some kind of Cambridge kind of thing going on in my head. And I get there and I'm the only foreigner.

Steph Fuccio:

Great. Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

They only do English. Oh. And yeah, it was. not very good. No. Yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

How strong was your culture shock? It was pretty strong. Pretty strong.

Evan Pinto:

Pretty strong.

Steph Fuccio:

How long do you think the worst part of it lasted?

Evan Pinto:

It probably lasted till Chinese New Year. The first month was cool. The first month was cool. I was just kind of get used to it. And then I went to Hong Kong and I wrote this post and I started, like, just. Okay, I'm here. You know, I didn't know about the holidays in China. And so for the October holiday, they told me, oh, you have a week off. I was like, a week off. I'm going to Big Jim. Because I, all my life, I'd been dreaming about seeing the Forbidden City and everything. Yeah. My favorite movie is the Last Emperor by Bernardo Bertolucci. It was made in 1987, which is the year I graduated high school. So, you know, I think that that's special for some reason, you know, and I just love the movie and everything. And so I wanted to get to Beijing as soon as I could and see the Forbidden City and the Great Wall and stuff. But I didn't know about October holiday. I didn't know about Ren, Shan, Ren, high people, Mountain, people see. And so I went to Beijing, and I was in Tiananmen Square on October 1st. And I never saw so many people in my life before. And I'm from New York.

Steph Fuccio:

Oh, my God.

Evan Pinto:

You know what I mean?

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So I tried to go through Tiananmen Square to Forbidden City, and I tried, and I was like, this. I. I'm overwhelmed too much.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So I left because I didn't want my experience to be ruined. Yeah. And I went back on October 2nd, and it was awesome. I was like, hardly anybody was there. It was great. It was great.

Steph Fuccio:

And.

Evan Pinto:

And then I came back to. Went back to Joshing and just started getting into the teaching mode and just trying to figure out how to do it. I found a gym and make more friends and start playing badminton and that kind of stuff. And then around Thanksgiving, Christmas, couldn't go home because of Chinese school calendar. Some days I would be just too tired to go out and try to battle over finding food. Even though I spoke a little Chinese, nobody understood me. I used to fight with this lady at this one restaurant about spinach.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah, you'd fight over spinach, like the pronunciation of spinach.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, the pronunciation of spinach. Oh, yeah. I would go and I would always get spinach and it's both side. And every time I'd go, I'd ask, can I have the both side? And she'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I'd bring a dictionary and I'd say both side. And she goes, uh-uh, both side. And I was like, what's the difference?

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

She's like, you,'re not saying that right. Yep. And I'm like, I'm saying exactly the way you're saying it. And I come here twice a week.

Steph Fuccio:

Come on, I get the same thing every time I come. I hate lived in Taiwan. I had a, there were tons of street carts everywhere, food carts, and there was a woman who sold only chicken wings. Actually, I think they were drumsticks. Only drumsticks. They were fried, they were beautiful, and it was easy because that's all she sold. So I thought, I learned how to do the numbers on my hands very quickly. Although my tones were off when I was trying to say them, I was like a you're a great, which I still can't even do right. But she only sold one thing. and I'm holding up one and I'm saying Iga, right? And she's just like, no, same thing, same exact thing. And I'm like, you sell one thing, I'm holding up the number one, I am one person. This is very easy. Context, context, context.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steph Fuccio:

But yeah, just the same.

Evan Pinto:

My language teacher told me that because I have an Anglo-Saxon face, Chinese people will Forgive me for my tones because they'll be able to, they'll be able to put it into context.

Steph Fuccio:

No.

Evan Pinto:

If I'm trying to say a whole sentence, right. If I'm doing like a word, right, then they'll say, I don't understand. But if I do a whole sentence, then they'll, then they'll be able to get it.

Steph Fuccio:

Do you find that that's true?

Evan Pinto:

Some people, yes, some people, no. And another thing that's very telling about coming from America, especially New York, and I hope this doesn't sound the wrong way, but it was just anthropological observations. Yeah, yeah. In New York, different people from different parts of the world, different facial features, different races, they have tend to have different jobs. New York's a very segregated town.

Steph Fuccio:

Yep.

Evan Pinto:

We all get along unless there's some disagreement.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

But that's usually personal, not racial. But the jobs are very segregated. Right. And so when I came to China, I had a really hard time knowing how to treat people based on their job because they looked like they shouldn't have that job. And then I realized, wow, I really do judge people by their race. And it was a big eye opening experience for myself.

Steph Fuccio:

Like what?

Evan Pinto:

Like, yeah, the woman at the convenience store.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Very pretty.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Pretty people like that should be in the magazine or, or and working at Vogue or something. You know what I mean?

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Evan Pinto:

You know, in America, I don't, I don't want to, it sounds horrible to say it, but, but, you know, if people who are very attractive usually get things in a certain industry or two.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

And people who are not conventionally attractive do other stuff.

Steph Fuccio:

A lot of people have covered this, but the difference between what Chinese people deem attractive for their faces versus what Westerners deem attractive does tend to have a difference too.

Evan Pinto:

That's true.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah, for me, I had a really hard time, and this will probably sound bad as well, but I had a really hard time telling differences between people because I wasn't used to, although I was in California and I knew tons of Asian Americans and I'd been exposed to Asian culture, I had never been around so many of one type of Asian face that I had a hard time telling people apart. And where I started in Taiwan, the girls, I taught children under 13, and the girls all had the same haircut. So I couldn't even go by hair color, haircut, perm, no perm, bangs, no bangs. It was all the same cut, all the same face, all the same school uniforms, because they would wear their school uniforms to our school at night. And I was just like, I don't know what to do. I can't tell. And they all had, like, English names and stuff, so I can't tell Sally, from Jane. And so I was getting over the use of English names and not being able to tell their difference. And I was just like, yeah, it's.

Evan Pinto:

Just, it's so crazy.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

In my undergrad, I took a lot of Chinese history classes, Chinese culture classes.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

And there's a saying in China, there's a hundred families, so there's a hundred faces. And because I taught a lot of like 60 plus in a class. I had like 19 classes in a week.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

And it was 60 plus in your class. That's a lot. So I would just stand there and look at Chinese faces all week long. And I got pretty good at seeing, oh, that face is like that face, but a little different. This is that, you know, like a square face or an oval face or a punk nose or a big nose, you know, that just the facial features that we Generalize with it. So, and because that first year was staring at these faces while I'm teaching, that became the imprint.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

And so now when I walk around Shanghai or I teach at the university now, I'm like, oh, that, oh, that, that face reminds me of the girl who sat on the third desk on the left back at 10, 12 years ago. And now I'm in 50s, probably 30 years old now, you know?

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

So it could be her.

Steph Fuccio:

It could be.

Evan Pinto:

Yeah. So there's a hundred faces in China, and, I mean, that's a cliche, but there's a little bit of truth.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is much more homogeneous, especially outside of the tier one cities. It's much more homogeneous than we're used to in some West, most Western cities. I can't speak for every place, especially in the U.S. because I was in Iowa before this, and that was a pretty homogeneous place. But generally speaking, cities do have the variety that you're talking about to some degree, not quite all the way to.

Evan Pinto:

23Rd Street in Manhattan. Everybody's there.

Steph Fuccio:

Yeah.

Evan Pinto:

Everybody's there. And I thought because I am from that area, I can tolerate anybody. And I do, but I also have an internal thought pattern that I was shocked by. And I'm glad that it happened to me, and I'm glad I realized it.